In “Small Mercies,” Episode 6 of Season 2 of Outlander: Blood of My Blood, Dougal (Sam Retford) is captured in battle and subjected to torture under the command of Captain Lord Gerard Grey (Digby Edgley). He manages to endure the ordeal until Brian Fraser (Jamie Roy) and Murtagh Fitzgibbons Fraser (Rory Alexander) arrive to rescue him, but Angus (Ross Mann) is not as fortunate. Before Brian leaves to reunite with Maura (Bobby Rainsbury) and his family, he also prevents Dougal from killing one of his tormentors, a young man known as Black Jack Randall.

Collider recently spoke with Retford about playing the unpredictable eldest MacKenzie and what audiences can expect from him as Season 2 continues. The actor opened up about the freedom he finds in Dougal’s chaotic nature, the experience of filming the torture sequence, and his reaction to Black Jack Randall’s introduction, even offering an apology to Outlander star Sam Heughan over the arrival of the iconic character. He also discussed Dougal’s perception of Gerard Grey, the devastating consequences of losing Angus, Maura’s increasingly significant place in his life, and the future of their relationship.

Sam Retford Explains Why Dougal’s Unpredictable Nature Makes Him So Much Fun to Play

“I get to have a lot of fun with him.”

I love your character. He’s the kind of character I love to watch when he gets thrown off because it’s fun to see how he reacts when he isn’t sure of what to do. What have you most enjoyed about those moments when he isn’t really sure of how to react to something?

There’s nothing better than throwing a volatile person into a situation that they have no control in. I am always grateful to have Dougal as the character that I was given because he doesn’t have to fit within the bounds of what’s societally acceptable in terms of reactions. So, what that creates is a beautiful cocktail of freedom, chaos, and a very fun playing field as an actor. I get to have a lot of fun with him.

He feels super predictable in certain circumstances, but in others, not at all.

Yeah, and I really hope that grows. You think that maybe Maura is someone to add an essence of stoicism to that chaos, but actually, we start seeing, in Season 2, her ability to just redirect that chaos.

Earlier this season, it was nice to see Dougal and Maura have a sex scene that was fun and funny with the fruit rolling off the table, since that doesn’t happen often on this show.

We laughed during that because I tore my jacket in half when I lifted her up in the corridor. The material of the jacket just ripped completely in two. That was so bad. We practiced and rehearsed that with Vanessa [Coffey], our wonderful intimacy coordinator, and also with the director. She had the idea very much in her head about how it would play out. But to get the dynamics of it to work, let’s just say there were pineapples where you didn’t want pineapples to be.

Because this is not a world known for its lightness, a moment like that is always memorable.

We’re so grateful, me and Bobby [Rainsbury], to be given some of the lightness in this show. They just have fun. That’s our ethos when we come to work, just to make sure that whatever’s happening, these characters are having fun, and we’re having fun creating the world that these characters are experiencing. I feel like we owe it to the audience to create something that feels real and that feels fresh. Within war, speaking in terms of a real sense, there is always light within grief, and I think that Maura is that light, for sure. We definitely have fun.

When we first see Dougal in Episode 6, he is chained up and being beaten, and it can’t be comfortable to keep your arms raised above your head for any length of time. What was it like to get locked into that contraption and have to stand there? Did they have to let you out after a certain amount of time?

They did. They created these amazing magnetic shackles, but as I was hanging off them when Dougal was losing consciousness, the shackles would break so they had to actually screw me into the shackles. It would take five minutes to take me out of them, and then five minutes to put me back into them. If they were going through a change of set-up, I could come out of it. But if they were just adjusting some lights or something like that between takes, it was just better for everyone if I stayed in the shackles. They were like, “You’ve got one job, just stay in the shackles.” So, I found myself hanging there for quite a long time. I was very polite for a while, and then I realized, “Oh, no, I can’t feel my hands.” The cold added to it. But it was all good fun. We’re unbelievably well looked after by the crew and the production team. It was all good fun. It’s all a bunch of pals just hanging out in a castle, beating each other up. It was great. I was in Scotland shirtless in October, just hanging out.

Black Jack Randall’s Arrival Brings an Iconic ‘Outlander’ Character Into the Prequel

“It’s such an iconic character.”

Image via Starz

When Dougal is standing there and taking that beating, the first man is just punching him matter of factly. But then, Dougal encounters a younger soldier who we eventually learn is Black Jack Randall. What did you think about all of that? How was that to shoot?

RETFORD: It was so cool. He played it really well. He made it so that we knew something was wrong when he had that poker. It was like, “Something is different in this boy’s mind.” And then, they reveal who it is, and we get the reveal that we end up letting him loose at the end. Sorry, future Sam Heughan, what you had to endure because Dougal decided this one time to be a nice person and listen to Brian.” It was just amazing. It’s such an iconic character. I would say he’s one of the most, if not the most, iconic. Tobias [Menzies] is just an absolutely wonderful human. To be able to be a part of that amazing mark on the Outlander universe was really, really cool. I saw it in the script and I just thought, “That’s clever. That’s very clever.” And the way they play it in Episode 6 is wonderful. It’s so earned. People love these little Easter eggs, and we love them. It’s a wonderful little nod to a beautiful character in a writing sense, but a terrible character within the Outlander universe.

I feel like you can just blame it on Brian because if Brian hadn’t said anything, Dougal probably would have just killed him.

RETFORD: But what am I doing listening to Brian? I’ve never listened to Brian. Maybe he thought he owed him one because he just saved his life. The alternative universe is that if Brian did [let him do it], we wouldn’t have Brian’s moral compass, which creates the character that we know and that Jamie would have learned his chivalry from. And we wouldn’t have the Jamie Fraser that we know if he didn’t learn that from Brian. He almost sacrifices his future self to maintain a good moral compass that becomes the Fraser that we know.

What does Dougal think of someone like Gerard Grey? He’s someone who is directing people to do his bidding instead of doing them himself, so how does Dougal feel about that?

RETFORD: He can’t stand him. He thinks he takes too many baths. In a character sense, they’re on different sides of the world. In a moral sense, he represents a group of people who, in real life, tried to diminish and take away Scottish culture, and jettisoned especially rural Scottish people into turmoil by financially crippling them and agriculturally crippling them. He poses and represents a very real threat to the prosperity of Scottish culture, language, art, clothing, expressionism, everything. He detests everything that Gerard Grey stands for.

Dougal doesn’t know what’s going on at home with Colum or with Ellen. But you read the scripts, so you’re aware of what is going on with the other characters in the episode. What was it like to learn about how Colum seems to be having a bit of a crisis of character at the moment, and Ellen has had this horrible thing happen to her?

RETFORD: It sets up such a wonderful sequence of events, to have these characters experiencing their own chaos. They’re all at war, in their own certain way. I look forward to the moment that he gets home and all of this chaos comes to one room. The conversations that I had in that room are ones where we get to see some very special parts of these characters that we haven’t seen yet.

We get to see Dougal and Angus share some moments together, talking about their lives while they’re essentially sitting there waiting to die. It feels out of character to even hear Dougal talking about the possibility of a family. Does he want a family with Maura? Is this the first time he’s even really thought about that?

RETFORD: Yeah, absolutely. The threat of war and the threat of everything being out of control, for the first time, we see Dougal in a situation that he has no control over and there’s no way out. We see him accept death, and not just for the nobility of the future prosperity of Scotland and Scottish culture, but for his family. He fears losing Maura. He maybe doesn’t understand that that’s what he’s scared of, but in that moment, we see a little flicker in him that is him learning, “Oh, God, I’m never going to get to see this woman again. What does that mean? Why do I feel sad? Why am I really sad that I’m never going to see this woman that I don’t like again?” That grows from this beautiful seed that we’ve planted now to them coming back. I hope that audiences can see it grow into something very beautiful and something very complex.

Dougal Owes Brian for Rescuing Him in ‘Outlander: Blood of My Blood’ Season 2

“He’s going to have to do something to pay back Brian for saving his damn life.”

Image via Starz

I love the idea of this big rescue with Brian and Murtagh showing up just in time to save Dougal. What do you think Dougal was thinking in that moment, when he realized someone arrived to save him, but also that it was Brian and Murtagh?

RETFORD: “Oh, for God’s sake, not you. Out of everyone, it was you? Really?” I think he’s thinking, “What the hell am I going to have to do for you, later on down the line?” Murtagh is nice. I’ve always enjoyed mine and Rory [Alexander]’s relationship with Dougal and Murtagh. That’s one I really would love to explore more. Matt [Roberts], if you’re listening, if we could have a little Dougal and Murtagh spin-off, I think they’d have a good time down at the tavern. So, he’s quite happy to see Murtagh, but then he sees Brian and is like, “Really? Out of everyone I have to bow down to and thank and maintain gratitude for, it’s you?” He’s going to have to do something to pay back Brian for saving his damn life.

I think Dougal loses a lot of power, in that moment, but hopefully it’s one that makes him realize that he’s not invincible. Actually, what makes him a better leader in the future is that he will learn to rely on the people around him. In the same way he learns that he can’t be successful without Maura, he can’t be successful without Colum, and he can’t be successful without Ellen, nor can he be alive without Brian and Murtagh. I hope this is a little step in him learning that the world’s a bit bigger than him and the people who run around with swords listening to him.

So, what you’re saying is that he doesn’t have to be a pain in the ass all the time.

RETFORD: Not all the time. He can be a pain in the ass sometimes because that’s the guy we love, but not all the time.

What was it like to shoot that whole rescue, with you in the water and them trying to break you out?

RETFORD: They built a two-story set in the studios, and they pumped it full of water and they drowned us. It was great. And then, they set timer. We told them we could hold our breath for 45 seconds, and that was it. Jamie [Roy] and Rory had to break us out. It was awesome fun. We were in the tank, and they filled it up past the top. We had these emergency signals that we would make if we were scared that we were going to drown, so they could open the lid and let us out, which happened a couple of times. They dragged me out once because they thought I was drowning. I was pretending to drown. I was in there, and then, all of a sudden, the gate got lifted up and we both got dragged out. Everyone was running around going, “Are you okay?” I was like, “Yeah, I’m fine.” They said, “We looked on the camera, and it looked like you were drowning.” And I said, “Yeah, we’re supposed to be drowning.” The safety team was watching us pretend to drown and had to know when it was pretend drowning and when it was real drowning. I think we did some realistic drowning.

Ross Man, who unfortunately meets a bitter end in the tank, was an absolute trouper. He’d never put a regulator in his mouth and he’d never dived before, but he took to it like an absolute fish. He was amazing. He was epic. It’s a really hard thing to do, to dive. It’s a very alien thing. But to dive in a confined space, and then add on top of that cold water, no lights, no visibility, no mask, no nothing, it’s an extremely alien environment and your body just wants to be not in there. Every fiber of your body just wants out and wants into the lovely hot tub next door with a glass of water. I knew I would be okay in a situation like that. I’ve led cave diving expeditions before. That is very much my element to feel comfortable in, so I was having a great time. I was out with Ross, and we were talking about it, and he was like, “I’ve never dived before.” I thought, “That is a brave man. That is amazing.” He did so well. He had a far harder job than me because he had to lie motionless in the freezing cold water. He did an amazing job. Playing dead is one thing but playing dead when you’re borderline hypothermic is another.

What do you think it was like for Dougal to have that moment of realization that he’s been saved, but his friend has drowned?

RETFORD: It’s such a quick moment. I remember it was so cold and there was no time. In an ideal world, Dougal would have sat there next to him and mourned the death of him and gone through that whole process. But due to the circumstance, he had to have that moment of realization that this man has died for him and died for the cause that he convinced him was worthy enough to sacrifice his life for and then move on. That’s really tough. He’s still a kid. He’s in his early 20s. You can’t maintain any level of empathy in that. You have to cut it short and leave it there. Maura is someone that can bring that side out of him. The pain of war definitely sticks with him. Unfortunately, we see that bleed into his life. War comes home with him, for sure. He definitely carries the guilt of those deaths with him.

Sam Retford Says That Dougal Wouldn’t Be Where He Is Without Maura in ‘Outlander: Blood of My Blood’ Season 2

“She actually represents something that he didn’t even know he was capable of.”

Image via Starz

It feels like right now, Dougal still isn’t entirely sure how to define his relationship with Maura? Is she going to become more important to him? What can you say to tease what’s next for them, but also what’s next for him?

RETFORD: You see Maura being a point of friction in Dougal’s life. It’s something that he thinks is causing him more grief than he deserves. But then, what he realizes is that he wouldn’t be where he is without Maura. She actually represents something that he didn’t even know he was capable of. The chaos that Maura probably resents in Dougal is a chaos that she learns to control. There’s quite a lot of weight with that. She is able to speak his language, as it were, and they start seeing eye to eye and they start becoming a bit more of a partnership than I think Dougal ever anticipated.

Maura has never really had anybody to listen to her either.

RETFORD: Yeah, that’s a really good point, actually. They find a lot of commonality where they never thought they would. Dougal was brought up and indoctrinated into this dogma of hating Grants and hating Frasers but actually has realized it seems as though he can’t live without either of them.

Outlander: Blood of My Blood airs on Starz.

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